The Silverfox Hustle Podcast
The hustle beats talent when talent doesn't hustle. The Silverfox Hustle is all about showcasing positive attitudes, great work ethics and consistent quality work. The Silverfox Hustle will be the vehicle that will inspire, motivate and share positive stories through its extraordinary guests. Host and creator, Shasi, is a former professional football player and now a coach developer as well as a commentator and pundit. He shares all the values and beliefs of the Silverfox Hustle. Enjoy the journey and stories! Cheers!
The Silverfox Hustle Podcast
Silverfox Hustle #87 - Beyond the Scrum with Sidney Kumar
Stepping off the field and into the boardroom, Sidney Kumar, former National rugby player and current GM of the Singapore Rugby Union, joins us to trace the arc of his career in the sport that shaped his life. From the vibrant tales of his formative years, juggling multiple CCAs with a mischievous streak, to the demanding yet fulfilling life of a national athlete, Sidney paints a vivid picture of his evolution both on and off the rugby pitch. Our conversation dives into the heart of rugby, revealing profound lessons of respect and camaraderie that mark the sport's enduring culture.
Sidney's story is not just about personal glory; it's about the commitment and sacrifices that come with representing your country, a sentiment any dedicated athlete can resonate with. We also wander into the lesser-spoken-about aspects of the sport: the myths, the inclusivity, and the emotional journey from the pinnacle highs to the devastating lows of national team selection.
In the final strides of our session, Sidney takes us through the pivotal moments of his post-playing career. From launching Spotify Kids—an initiative to bring sports to children—to eventually taking the helm at the Singapore Rugby Union.
The essence of our discussion is clear: the hustle for the love of rugby never fades, and for Sidney Kumar, it's about passing on that passion to the next generation, one tackle at a time. Tune in for an episode that's as full of heart as a Haka chant.
Inspiring stories of resilience: overcoming struggles, finding purpose, transforming lives
Listen on: Apple Podcasts Spotify
This is the Silver Fox Hustle podcast. Hello and this is the Silver Fox Hustle podcast. This is episode number 87 and if you are watching us on YouTube, please click on that subscribe button and obviously we are on Spotify, apple Podcast and the works all your usual podcast platforms Now in the studios. With me today on this latest episode is a former National rugby player. He is a former teacher at San Andrews secondary school. He is also a founder, or the founder of Spotify kids, a multi-spot academy for kids We'll talk about that later on and he is also currently the GM, the general manager of Singapore Rugby Union. Welcome to the podcast, mr Sidney Kumar.
Speaker 2:It's an honor. It's an honor, big honor.
Speaker 1:Welcome and greetings. And you know, just to warm up a little bit, over the weekend or the past few weekends, the National League finals were held. Yes, just last weekend. How was that man?
Speaker 2:I think what's awesome is the first big one that we had post COVID. So we managed to line up some of the games. I think there were four games on that day, from 11 all the way to end off at about 637 o'clock. Singapore Cricket Club ended up being the the Premier League champions. I think it's the first time in a while for them.
Speaker 1:Oh is it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so they've played Bucks Rugby Club a couple of times in the finals and Bucks have etched them out the last few years, I think. But all in all, for Rugby it was a good day out, a good weekend out actually. So that weekend three big events were happening all over Singapore for Rugby At the same time, different stadiums. But you don't really see, and were you?
Speaker 1:like overseeing every one of them. No, no, no, no so.
Speaker 2:I don't think we have the band way from the Union's perspective to oversee everything there was concurrently on Saturday, there was the Junior Rugby Club's league, so the Academy kids and all that were playing, and then there was also the Sympathrix Women's Cup at CCAB Stadium. So Rugby is around. It's just that you know.
Speaker 1:Let's put it this way it was a massive Rugby weekend.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, Brilliant brilliant.
Speaker 1:Now, over the next hour or so, we'll talk about a range of stuff From the sport itself to you teaching you donning national colours, obviously, but let's start off with the young Sydney, right? What were you like as a young boy growing up? Were you the sporty kind? I think I know what the answer is going to be, but what were you like growing up? What was I like growing up?
Speaker 2:Boystress, a bit of a delinquent.
Speaker 1:Really Not so much.
Speaker 2:In primary school I was a bit more of a cowboy. I took on I remember P5, p6, I took on four CCAs. Is that allowed? Back then there were no rules, oh yeah last time it was a cowboy town.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So every day after school I would have a CCA. I was in the science club, I was in boys brigade, I was in football and I was in rugby.
Speaker 1:This was so that you don't need to go back home, right? One of the reasons? Sort of sort of sort of.
Speaker 2:But I think back then for me it was all sport, all just being active. I wouldn't say I was anti-studying, but yeah, I just wanted to be active.
Speaker 1:Which schools, by the way, primary, secondary?
Speaker 2:St Andrews junior Right right St.
Speaker 1:Andrews secondary. That explains right how about your size? I mean, were you built?
Speaker 2:like a.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:I wouldn't say scrawny. I guess I had the height and a bit of a frame Okay. But then I only started applying proper strength and conditioning principles and all that Probably towards in the early parts of my uni times. Oh, that was like late man, Late, late, late. So I didn't really do proper SNC and all that all the way until.
Speaker 1:Why Because of education or because of you just don't like weight training? I know a lot of people.
Speaker 2:It's really more of education and probably the need.
Speaker 2:So before that, I mean, I played for the National Under 19s squad and back then, you know, at the age group level you could get away with certain things. I mean I didn't have to be massive to survive on the field and all that right. So I was quick enough I could do certain things and so I didn't have to. I didn't see that need Nice, nice as I got further on into my playing career also, because after I had a fitness base and all that, then I started to think about hey, if I want to make playing in the national team a constant thing, then I would have to be more focused about these things I see.
Speaker 1:I see Now. You spoke about football just now, so you did play football. And even now maybe sometimes kick about.
Speaker 2:Now weeknight kick abouts 10 to 12 midnight.
Speaker 1:Not bad man, also you do play the sport.
Speaker 2:I still try. Who do you support, by the way? Menu?
Speaker 1:Okay, a great weekend, great weekend. Right, let's talk about rugby a little bit, right. How did this love for rugby start, like how? Because not many schools are obviously St Andrews right, but in terms of the sport itself, probably the school helped being in the school.
Speaker 2:Definitely, definitely, I think. Back then, apart from being in the school, I don't think there were many other opportunities outside of CCA to pick up the sport. Okay, yeah, so I stumbled onto it. I think in primary three, right, there was just a simple call for participation in those interclass games and all that. Who wants to sign up? Okay, npe, you learn to run around with an oval shape ball.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:And back then it was simple, right, you didn't think about scrums, lineouts or whatever set pieces or who was bigger and all that. You just thought about take the ball run into space, don't get caught.
Speaker 1:Yep, it's just like police and tea for catching, Exactly exactly that.
Speaker 2:So from there I fell in love with that. All my entire primary school career career, my entire primary school life. All I thought about was just trying to get better at that game of running away from my friends.
Speaker 1:Were you. What would I say? What's the word? Were you natural? At that time I mean looking back obviously do you think that you were natural, because it's a?
Speaker 2:Because there are no historical records. I can say anything.
Speaker 1:Please, please do.
Speaker 2:No, okay, I would say I had a bit of an advantage. I don't know what it was, but I had a bit of a flare for the sport in that sense. So I actually managed to play up an edge in that sense.
Speaker 3:So I was.
Speaker 2:I think in P4 or P5, I was invited to go to Perth with the P6s. That also at that time made me a bit of an outcast with that boy. So also at that time made me a bit of an outcast with that boy. It's because the P6s were like who is this young guy? But I mean, that's back then. My memory maybe fuzzy, but yeah. So I had a bit of that advantage in that sense.
Speaker 1:Not bad man. Now I want to talk about how about support from your parents, though? Was there good support from your parents, your family, relatives, whatever?
Speaker 2:in terms of the sport itself, I think my parents were pretty easy going in that sense.
Speaker 3:So as long as.
Speaker 2:I was still putting time into my studies. I wasn't falling too far back, so they pretty much allowed things to go Hence four CCAs. My dad played a lot of football growing up, so he was always okay with sports and things like that Nice.
Speaker 1:Now let's talk about rugby, the sport, specifically Now, because, listen, I got to tell you I'm ignorant In terms of the knowledge about the sport. As you know, I'm a football person. What is the difference between rugby union and rugby league? Because I see that there's a difference obviously.
Speaker 2:Why do?
Speaker 1:you call it rugby union. Why do you call it rugby league? What's the difference For people who's watching this? I think it would be good info.
Speaker 2:Don't quote me on the exact details, but sometime back when rugby first came out, league and union there was a split. So of course, because of organisations, maybe because of politics back then, or whatever. So they decided to have a split, and from there the versions of the sport just started to carve their own differences.
Speaker 1:Where was this? If you're trying to get the history back, then I don't know whether it was in England or I'm not sure, so they just split because of whatever reason, right, correct.
Speaker 2:And then what you see now is slight variations in the game. So in the league version you play a 13 man game when rugby union most of the time I mean the 15 aside code, right. So you play 15 aside game and then offhand people like I mean the fans of rugby league it's a bit more free flowing. It's six possessions and in those possessions you get to be as creative as you want.
Speaker 2:Of course there are certain set pieces around it, but emphasis is not that it's on that free flowing. Use your six possessions to try to score. Whereas for union it's basically similar to any of your territorial invasion games, your football and all that. You have time period your 90 minutes, 80 minutes to Just play, right, right right, yeah, and.
Speaker 1:And in Singapore do they have the league and the Union, do they have a split, or is just in Singapore?
Speaker 2:league. I am very sure there are small pockets of Enthusiasts about league and they probably gather to play. I Recall a few years back Someone actually tried to franchise a big a bit of a Singapore rugby league team, okay, but that didn't fall through right. But otherwise Union is the popular game here and with Union comes also rugby 7s right, right, nice, nice.
Speaker 1:Touch rugby. Hmm, what about touch rugby? Like, like the differences, obviously, so this one is definitely so much different, right? So it's a simple, just simplify it for us touch rugby, touch, I think they, they would, they would kill us if they hear us calling it. Touch rugby but it's touch football, Okay, okay okay, right, I mean traditionally people, people think sorry.
Speaker 2:Joking, joking, but people call it. Touch Rugby back then for its overshadowing to rugby, but it's actually a very different game.
Speaker 1:Okay right.
Speaker 2:It's actually more Close or more closely linked to League, in the sense that six possessions okay, no contact Okay, and then you just try your best to score. So hence you see the popularity in your Australia's and New Zealand, because League is popular there, I touch, football is popular there, right.
Speaker 1:Nice, nice. So we got that out of the way. Everyone, union, rugby league and touch football. Yes, I got it right this time now. You probably Would have gotten this a lot from back then till now, I'm sure. I'm sure with parents and with whoever right, it's a dangerous sport now. Is it a dangerous sport Of?
Speaker 2:course. Okay. I've said this many times before and I will probably repeat it at least what is dangerous to a certain extent If you don't take the right precautions, if you're not coach the right way, if you're not prepared the right way. People often ask me. I tell people I play rugby. For what? 20, 20 plus years. Yeah, how many injuries you have.
Speaker 2:Yes, I have my fair share of injuries, but I'm still playing today, right. So I Think, with every sport, enter, enter with, with, with an open mind, don't go in thinking about, oh, I'm gonna get injured, I'm gonna get right. So you go into it with an open mind, going through a proper protocols. Hmm right, proper coaching, proper session plans, going through proper programs that will help right, right. And then for rugby specifically, it it looks like that, or the impression of that. Danger is like that because of the pure contact.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, correct You're right, so Can't, can't escape it.
Speaker 1:You know, I want to say this because I'm very biased as well, because we are sports people, right, because, as you said, any sport in the world is dangerous. It's as simple as that, you know. And and I'm just looking at things and looking at the sports over the years right, I'm looking at basketball as well. It is really dangerous because of the stop start, because of the twisting and turning and it's very fast. Space there's you can't hide when you're playing basketball. So that's just an example. So what you said there was definitely. You know, spot on about every sport is dangerous and, like you said, the proper coaching comes in, the proper technique comes in, and when you say technique as well, you know when there's contact and all you need to know how to ride a tackle. I think that's important as well. You know in football as well, exactly when you know someone is coming, you Is, it's up here, you know automatically.
Speaker 2:The tackle is coming, I'm going here, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I think that's that's key and and you really really spot on there. I I also want to touch on this, sydney, and I think this is very important, especially coming from a football Background right, it is also known as the gentleman's sport. Gentlemen's sport, not football, but rugby right and and I love that about the sport right and how has that, you know, become like that in in rugby? You know, because you talk about grown man not contesting a referee's decision After, I don't know, it could be a bad call right in one of the worst decisions ever, but you still Are able to control yourself. How is that possible, sydney, please tell me? I think it's.
Speaker 2:It's uh Uh, something that rugby union takes pride in. So the I mean we operate with a set of values, and respect is one of the key values of the game, all the way from the top, where you see your national players Representing players at the World Cup, whether they're all blacks, whether they play for England or whatever, all the way to the grassroots level right. That value of respect transcends through the sport and I think a lot of it comes from that cycle of Kids growing up watching role models, respecting referees, understanding that when they are playing, they offer the same respect right.
Speaker 2:And it works both ways. So the match officials as well. They go into the games knowing certain things. They, they command a certain level of respect and therefore, just before the game, they engage the players, they speak to the teams, they, they have their team talks and tell the players what to expect. And after games, you know Sometimes the referees, if they're more comfortable, they join the teams for beers and things that you know.
Speaker 1:That's part of that. It's a culture, yeah, right, and, and you know you, you you spoke about this, right, and do you do you? We're talking about grassroots level when this first start off the kids, right? Is this really instilled in them about the respect part, the culture part, you know? Is that instilled in them when, when they are still like, yeah, especially at the club level, I?
Speaker 2:think, at the club level. That's where you see all this culture and all that come out most probably. Because, why? Because a lot of the coaches, maybe they are their parents first and coaches second, right, so they get their accreditation or whatever, and then they go and take their teams and then Imagine in your team, right, your coach is your, your, your friends there, and that's that. And a lot of times at the, at the lower levels, at the grassroots, grassroots level, junior rugby level, these coaches are also the same refs, the same officials, the same guys that you see every weekend at the club, taking care of you and things like that.
Speaker 2:So that's where you see the cultures more prevalent in the junior clubs.
Speaker 1:It's. It's really a kind of like a family culture, family, a fair thing, man, yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 2:And and what you see as well in the connectedness of the clubs. So some of the senior clubs that that have these connections all the way down to the grass.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, the junior levels.
Speaker 2:For example um sec right. So, they won the premiership on Saturday, and what you see is after that final right a lot of them brought their families, the kids and all that in their nice academy jerseys, came to take a nice family photo and that's where you see that whole pathway connected Nice, nice, yeah, it's um.
Speaker 1:You know, I, I love to make the comparison with football, right, and you spoke about instilling that in the younger ones. You know, talking about culture, respecting the referee Especially that's the most important part. You know, respecting everyone, parents, even your opponents, right, and I have to say this at at at the lower Levels, we do have that. You know we do have coaches doing that with the kids I'm talking about football and then everything else right, and even when they're growing up playing for clubs, you know you do have coaches doing that. But you know what's the problem. You know what's the problem. The problem is watching football on TV. Yeah, you know so when you watch football on TV and you see players An shouting at referees, every single decision is being contested that's when you can't get a hold of the kids anymore, because they're doing out there, the pros are doing out out there. How are you gonna stop this? But in rugby, you see it on TV. They don't question the referees, right?
Speaker 2:Hence that culture of role model that's very important. Like as a kid growing up, your role models are not immediately your seniors or whatever. Your role models are the guys you watch on TV every week right. Playing for the All Blacks, or playing for England or whatever, and these are the guys that you see most humble, speaking to refs, being in a very professional tone not shouting back.
Speaker 2:I think that's the difference currently between the two sports. For football I mean just a simple example. You watch Manchester United. The captain of the team, I don't need to say who- BF yeah. Every other time he's complaining or moaning about a decision. I think the last few games I saw also every other game is a yellow card for descent things like that. It doesn't paint such a positive image or being a role model in the sense for the juniors.
Speaker 1:And the worst part, he's the captain.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that says a lot right, Exactly exactly, and yeah, you're right about that.
Speaker 1:Any myths you wanna dispel about the game that you can think of off your head like something that you wanna get it off your chest? Any myths?
Speaker 2:Rung B. I think the let's go back to the injury portion about Rung B, right? I think almost everyone that you speak to about Rung B, everyone is talking about injuries and all that.
Speaker 2:So, like I said, first thing is every sport is dangerous to a certain extent if you are not properly coached or properly trained or in a proper program. I think the other thing that I wanted to dispel is also that Rung B union as a sport. It's probably the only sport in the world that can factor in all shapes and sizes. What do you mean If you are? A bit bigger in size there's a position for you If you're a bit faster, skinnier there's a position for you. If you're smaller in stature, but got quick feet there's a position for you.
Speaker 3:Right right.
Speaker 2:So not really a negative thing, but yeah. So that's something interesting that a lot of people don't tend to realise.
Speaker 1:So, ladies and gentlemen, there's still hope for me.
Speaker 2:You can play any sport, I think.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're right, man, it's like it caters to anyone so that you put them in their positions. And again, I like to make the comparisons. Right at the football, right, if you are overweight, you just go in, go. When we were growing up.
Speaker 2:Even now I see some of the social media comments on which club?
Speaker 3:there was one club with the goalkeeper that seemed a bit bigger.
Speaker 2:And then I see the social media comments are like oh, yeah, harsh, yeah, harsh, harsh, definitely.
Speaker 1:Now let's talk about national team. The national team. When you were playing right, you played for them for about 10 years or so. Yeah, and when was this? When you first got that call-up?
Speaker 2:Like I mentioned just now, I was playing for the under 19s in 2003. 2002, 2003. Back then it was a bit of a thick skin self-collap kind of thing.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:I'll explain why. Right, right, so after the A division season there was a call-up for the combined schools. Okay, right. So I was like I thought I did well, I was playing well, and all that. I said my friends got call-up, the ACS guys got call-up, the refos guys got call-up. Where's my call-up? So I was like, oh fine, when is training? I shall just, you know, try to slot myself in somewhere.
Speaker 1:And then from there I said Ken okay, how do you slot yourself in in a national team training? That was combined schools, right, right.
Speaker 3:So from there, that was early stages.
Speaker 2:So the actual call-up, I think, was in 2007. I received an email from back then general manager about you know, coming down for the national teams and training with the seven squad and things like that. So I played from 2007 to 2017. Right, right.
Speaker 1:What was it like, man, the first call-up when you got it and, you know, wearing obviously with the national flag on your chest. What was the feeling?
Speaker 2:like I think back then it was done a bit more professionally. There was a bit of prestige 2007, I think I was in. I was waiting to enter uni, ah, okay. So I, like I said, I received an email and it's really like old school. So now this you probably get a call-up on WhatsApp.
Speaker 1:Right, right, right. So I received an email. It's nice man to get an email, like you know, with the proper you know.
Speaker 2:I can still remember, you know so, and so you're invited to join the club. Then we are working towards C-games. This is the program, you know. So what was it like man? No, it was for me.
Speaker 1:Was that even a question? Are you keen? No, there was no doubt. Just just just, yeah, just stood up. No question, no question at all.
Speaker 2:So for me, like I shared just now right, I started playing rugby for the fun of it.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Along the way. I think after secondary school, jc time, right, that was when I started to aspire to say one day wanna be there putting on a national jersey, sing the national anthem, that kind of thing. And then, when that call-up actually came, I was all in Right, right right. To me that 10 years right almost disappeared. Every other aspect of my life disappeared because I was all in on rugby.
Speaker 1:You were already in that within that 10 years itself, do you were already teaching and started teaching at all.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I started teaching in 2011. Right, right, okay.
Speaker 1:So you were teaching and obviously, when you got the call-up, obviously you got to go and and you guys won the C-Games in 2015? No, Sorry, Silver medal. Silver medal in 2017. 17, in Malaysia. I'm sorry for that also. Please tell me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so by 2017, I was already 30-31, right, okay. So approaching the last legs.
Speaker 1:Ah, okay, I had a 31. 31,. I think that's like you had your peak, isn't it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah yeah, but in the game of 7s it's quite demanding, okay, okay. And then also, I had just come back from quite a serious knee injury, okay. So I missed the 2015 C-Games because of that serious knee injury. I came back to the squad in 2016. Then my entire goal was to make the 2017 C-Games squad and then retire from the national team and then, yeah, train put everything aside, just everything in right 2017 came.
Speaker 2:Selection came at CCAB. The coaches put me aside and said hey, you are not going to make it. Wow, we are taking 12 guys up. You are the 13th guy. So back then, right, it was before training. I tell you harsh.
Speaker 1:Before training Before training.
Speaker 2:So I was like wow, am I supposed to continue training? Do I pretend, or so. Then they announced the squad to the team. Every one of them I mean 90% of the squad is younger than me. I only had a couple, one or two guys around my age. So they all like, hey, sit you okay.
Speaker 1:So how many players were part of that? The ones that were left out in that initial, I think?
Speaker 2:the I can't remember, I think we had. We always had a couple of trials. The widest squad was about 20 plus 30. Then we always cut, cut, cut cut cut, cut Until the last part. Then probably left a few, okay. So after that training session I went back.
Speaker 1:That's it right. I thought that was the end of the road Already 13th man.
Speaker 2:What am I going to do? I'm not going to keep my hopes up for somebody to get injured right. So I think it was a month out to the C Games, Went back, continued work, moved on, started beers and all that Back to life.
Speaker 1:Must be a shitty feeling the next morning when you go to work. Sorry, bro, so back to life.
Speaker 2:And then the time came for the squad to travel up. So the squad travelled up on the Monday. They had training on a Tuesday or Wednesday. After the training, I didn't know I was in a boardroom for a meeting.
Speaker 2:Then my phone rang my assistant coach called Uh-oh, it can't possibly be. Yeah, man, I haven't done anything for two, three weeks. It can't possibly be. So I was like, okay, I need to take this call from the meeting. I was like, excuse me, I went outside. What are you doing now? I said I'm in the meeting, Can you get your stuff ready? Wow, who'd speak to so and so with your principals and all that right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Get your stuff ready. Get your things ready. We are probably going to decide, and let you fly up soon, because one of the players got injured. So then I was like what am I supposed to do? But of course that was my ultimate goal, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah so.
Speaker 2:I effectively threw everything aside. I had no other details, I just hey guys, I got to go. The thing carry on without me I went back so started to sort out my things. I started to plan and whatever, right, and that was on a Tuesday or Wednesday. The tournament was on the Friday, Saturday or Saturday. Oh, that's quick man, yeah yeah. So I had to just get ready so that they can slot me into one of those C Games flights to KL and then Is the rugby tournaments?
Speaker 1:does it start before the opening ceremony? Like football, usually, usually.
Speaker 3:No.
Speaker 2:I think that was after.
Speaker 3:Right, I think it was after, because the seventh is just a two-day tournament.
Speaker 2:Football is a few days.
Speaker 1:And when you went up it was in Malaysia. Right yeah, how obviously you guys did. Well, you got the Silo medal and stuff. But how about you? Did you play and train.
Speaker 2:I played enough. So after I got confirmation about the flight, I knew the day. I didn't know the time, so they just told me it will slot you into a flight on Thursday. It's like okay, one time Lightly afternoon Off work on Thursday, went to sports council, went to sports Singapore. I was like better squeeze in sometime at the gym.
Speaker 1:Yeah, panic, last minute gym session.
Speaker 2:Collected my, your next kid, and then off to the airport in the afternoon and flew down.
Speaker 1:Wow, so that's the beauty of becoming player number 13,. Man, just in case, right, the beauty of it. Yeah, you know, but yeah, so you did. Well, man, and I just want to ask you this question right, and you don't the national colors for what? 10 years? And you said it yourself, right, you obviously started off with passion, but then, after a while, it was the aim to be there and you know, you wore it proudly and you also trying to get so hard or trying to get into that squad in 2017, so bad, you know, after that injury and all right, and you spoke about it just now Do you see playing for the national team as a privilege or it's a sacrifice?
Speaker 1:This question is because of I give you the context, right, you know, because some national players not only I'm not talking about rugby, I'm talking about football, I'm talking about any other sport right, because it comes with being away at maybe one week, two weeks, one month, and then, after a while, I've heard of people saying that, hey, it's a sacrifice, man, I'm sacrificing for the country I'm going away and I'm sacrificing for the country I'm leaving my family behind, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right, in your opinion, is that a sacrifice or is it just a privilege, man, if I have to leave my family for two weeks, I'm going, because you know not many people has that opportunity to represent your country, man. Yeah. So what's your take on that? For?
Speaker 2:me it's all pride, all privilege, always an honor. If you ask me now whether I could, I would stitch up my body and go again. Right, but I think the reality in Singapore is that it always comes with that sacrifice element and that's something you can't escape.
Speaker 2:It's just that the emphasis you place on the sacrifice element or whether it's all about the pride for you. So back then, for me, on the personal level, I mean I wasn't the best athlete back then or whatever right but for me when it comes to the national team, it was always Singapore first right. So, whatever it was, training on Tuesday, thursday nights after a long day teaching in school you know, and then extra gym sessions in the morning, 6 am before assembly.
Speaker 2:We'll still do that, just so that we can keep ourselves relevant. Keep staying calm.
Speaker 1:Do you do that on your own? The gym sessions before school?
Speaker 2:Yeah, have to because I mean, the other guys were either studying or, if they're working or other jobs you don't have to go so early anyway.
Speaker 1:But for me as a teacher, you know we start early and all that, so we don't have a choice. You're right, you're right.
Speaker 2:Then, yeah, yeah, Definitely an honour for me. There was not a doubt. I have seen people talk about that as a sacrifice, Even in rugby. Even in rugby, and I get very, very, very irritated when people tell me it's so tiring I need to do this Nice.
Speaker 1:It's a good sack, by the way. You spoke about being a teacher and you know, and you start the teaching way back in 2011, I think, with the day sack right, and then, obviously, you moved on and, as an Andrew sack, you were teaching for about what a good 11 years. How is teaching like for you? You know, and you coached the rugby team as well in school, or that was somebody else who did it we had coaches, but I was a bit more hands-on in the sense purely because I knew the game and all that.
Speaker 3:Nice.
Speaker 2:It helps, right, it helps, of course, of course. Teaching for me, for me, when I made a decision to go into teaching back then, was purely because I wanted to do something sport-related Okay, so my passion for sport growing up and all that forced me to think about like sporting career choices.
Speaker 2:So, back then. It was, I think, back then, not many options, right. It was either coaching or being a PE teacher and the coaching scene wasn't so developed especially for rugby and other things. So PE teacher, that seemed to be the viable option, right. So I went in there. So 10, 11 years I was teaching. For a good part of that 10, 11 years I think. For six of those years I was playing and teaching. Oh yep yep, and then towards the end, it's really just focused on my job as an educator.
Speaker 1:Nice, okay, and you know, after that long right and you quit teaching and then you went into the Spotify kits, right?
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:What was your thinking behind this? Because not many people would do that. Because you know, yeah, you've been teaching for 11 years. It's probably like I don't know what you call it an iron rice bowl or whatever, whatever you would call it.
Speaker 2:Iron rice bowl is the exact term.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because it's stable basically in a way. In a way, unless you do something stupid, right, get sacked or whatever. But yeah, it's kind of stable. And you know why leave teaching? Because it's not easy, right, not easy. Not a lot of teachers will actually do that, especially after a long time teaching, and then go and do something, and you just branched out doing something which is, I'm sure it's your love and your passion. We're going to talk about that as well, right? But why leave?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so back then I think the thinking for me was that there was a bit of fear and a bit of that challenge element. So the fear was whether I would be stagnating In school. Give me In school in teaching in terms of personal development. Back then I was 30 plus, you know.
Speaker 1:Were you the HOD already?
Speaker 2:Of what sports, yeah, okay right, so for me I was at that point where I didn't see myself being like a vice principal or principal, and then I asked myself am I going to spend another 25 years being in this role? Then I panicked a bit, right? So that's where the fear came in. So the challenge part was about, you know, whether I can stretch myself a bit more. I'm a big believer in the growth mindset idea and continuing to self-develop, right, learning and relearning things and all that. So the challenge element came in quite strongly in the sense that if my entire career was teaching and all that, right, I won't learn anything else. I won't, I won't it.
Speaker 3:I got a bit worried, like in terms of self development.
Speaker 2:But because the outside world of corporate world, as we all know, is very different Different elements to manage, different people to manage to interact with, and all that. So I made the strong decision to step out of teaching, but also because I had the backing of my wife you know that right, so I know that at the end of the day, my wife was still working, the kids would be okay and stuff like that, so I wasn't making a rash decision.
Speaker 1:Good on you, man, because it takes lots of courage to do that right, actually, to get out, like you said, but obviously the fear of being stagnant as well, you know, pushed you to do that. Let's talk about Spotify kids a little bit. What pushed you to do that, and what is it exactly?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so when I stepped out of teaching, this idea came about because of, like I said, fundamentally my passion for sport and wanting to infuse sport to the younger generation. Right, that's exactly what PE teaching is right. And for me, I wanted to stay away from the traditional norms of a very structured academy focused kind of setup. Right, I believe that that kind of setup is beneficial for certain sports at a certain age group, but really at the base level, kids should be exposed to different sports, hence against early specialization. Yep, yep, yep. So I did that for about a year and, of course, currently I'm not doing that anymore. Yeah, so that was related to my passion and beliefs with sport.
Speaker 1:And it is not running anymore.
Speaker 2:It is not for two reasons, because I have another full-time job now and also because of my bandwidth. I see, I see great, great.
Speaker 1:Now let's talk about your role as the GM. And you are the GM as a general manager of Singapore Rugby Union. So you know, we talk about football again. I make comparisons. Is the so-called the highest person in charge? Is the Gen Sack, right? So, in rugby terms, that's you. So you are the general manager of Singapore Rugby. So that's you right. Was it something that you envisioned when you were I wouldn't say when you were a young boy, right? When you were, when you had retired, you know, and from the national team, and you know you slowly making your way, feeling your way doing Spotify, and did you think that that could be a role for yourself?
Speaker 2:you know I would be lying if I said that I didn't think about it. Okay, for me, fundamentally, it was because, then, all these years of rugby and being passionate about the sport, it was always there was always a desire to want to give back, okay, and at school, working with kids, and all that, that's me giving back in the smaller scale, right, yep. But now I'm able to contribute widely to the sport, the growth of the sport, to the development of the sport and, of course, ultimately, looking at all aspects.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So opportunity actually came about quite suddenly. Okay, so I was coaching one of the club teams at one of the SRU tournaments and then the SRU president came up to me and asked me what are you doing these days? Would you like to apply for this job? It's currently open and I think you make quite a good fit, Right? So I thought, okay, sure, why not?
Speaker 3:Because back then I was still doing the Spotify Kids, I was still coaching rugby and all that, so gathered my CV, went for the interview and then yeah.
Speaker 1:Wow, Great man, Brilliant, and I think it all stems from your passion for the sport. Like you said, you want to give back. It's as simple as that, right? I want to ask you this what is your brief as the GM, right? So who do you report to?
Speaker 2:by the way, I report to there's a board, there's an executive board.
Speaker 1:So what is your brief? What's your objective? No objective, the expectations or the goals, and Singapore's favourite acronym, KPIs, which I hate.
Speaker 2:But what is your main goal as the GM, I think there are many interpretations of this, so there is a textbook interpretation of purely an administrative function right the chief administrator in the NSA. There's also people that think that the GM is just managing different aspects of rugby. For me I see it a bit differently because of my passion and my years of involvement with the sport. So I see it as a bit of a custodian of everything in Singapore that touches rugby. So that can be quite a loaded term right. So all the way from kids, junior rugby development, schools clubs.
Speaker 2:And then you move on up the ranks to high performance your 7s teams, your 7 aside teams, your major games teams, your 15 aside teams, and then the clubs, the community taking care of this entire aspect, and then, of course, the pathways and the pipelines leading up to this entire aspect, so your funding pathways, your marketing pathways and things like that.
Speaker 1:It's huge man, it's massive, but this is something that you have taken on. It wasn't spoken to you, it wasn't. To be very honest, I could survive doing just an administrative role, right, right, but you have taken it on your own right Because, purely because the sport needs something, I mean there's a reason why we do all this right.
Speaker 2:Like you take time out of your own work as well to speak to people, to engage, to tell stories, so same thing for me. It's a lot of going back to passion, going back to why we start, going back to ensuring that the next generation has something to step onto the field with. Right, right, right. So for me, I mean I honestly I'm not sure where we will end up with this job. I'm not sure where I will lead the youth into.
Speaker 1:Is this a contract basis on it's full-time employment? It's full-time employment, nice, nice. And again, I just love doing the comparison to the football side of things. Right, this is equivalent to. You know not now, because I don't think it exists right now. It's the Arsene Wangers and the Alex Ferguson's In charge of the whole team. They do everything, they do everything right, even in charge of the stadiums. You know how do you want the stadiums to be built and stuff like that, you know, so that's kind of like that something like that.
Speaker 1:You just want to be overseeing everything and get involved in everything, and you know, that's great man. Good luck, because I think it's massive, but I think if there's anyone who can do the job as well as I hope so.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know and it's been what? One year, seven months, seven months, yep, I want to ask you that. The next one is how has it been so far in terms of has it been a seamless transition from, you know, just playing the sport and then coaching, and then now you don't really do the coaching bit, the administrative part, right? Has it been seamless or has it been a challenge for you?
Speaker 2:It's. To me. It's a positive challenge in the sense that, like I said, translating from teaching to this role, ultimately from teaching to coaching for me seamless Because the communication skills, the tools are there, I think it's seamless. But from being a teacher-educated coach to this, which is more of an administrative and managerial role taking care of different aspects, that's where the positive challenge for me is, I think. All of a sudden now I find myself every day I would think about marketing, bd, finance, budgets, as well as national teams, grassroots development and all that. So for me currently, seven months in, still an exciting challenge.
Speaker 1:Ask me again in a few months what has been the major difficulty to you, if you have to name one like a real challenge.
Speaker 2:so far Communication pathways Between At all levels, so from the board to myself, from myself to the board, from the union to community, community to union.
Speaker 1:Is this trying to change what has been done before? Is it like trying to? Change the pathways and how things are supposed to be done.
Speaker 2:A bit of that, I think, maybe because my perspective is from the ground up, because I came through the ranks. I was a player for a large part of this, so I see things from that perspective. So the challenge is, like I said, connecting all these elements.
Speaker 1:You know, you are a true and true rugby person from the sport itself, like you said, from ground up. Do you think we need more of this in NSAs in general? Because then you have people who know the sport, probably would have coached maybe here and there, but not at the probably the elite level, but you know the sport in and out. Do you think we need more of that, people like that, who know the sport, to be in charge Not really the administrative part but the technical side of things, getting the coaching side, the coaching aspect, done. National teams, you know. Do you think we need more of that?
Speaker 2:I can't speak for other sports. In fact, I don't know. Mine is still an experiment in progress, so I don't know whether it will work, but I think there is value in that. I think it's important, especially as NSAs right. I think again, this is just my view. I may be totally wrong, but I think there are some NSAs that maybe operate a bit too administratively and out of context, I think, especially in Singapore, in a small, a bit of a kampung nation.
Speaker 2:It's not about we are not dealing with millions and millions of athletes. It's really a small group of passionate sports guys, whether they are in their clubs or schools or communities. So it shouldn't be, everything shouldn't be done in a textbook manner. So there's an element of that context. Whether or not it applies to all sports I can't say, but I think there's value in having that person with that contextual knowledge, that person with that ground up perspective.
Speaker 1:Anything new coming up for you who's been here for seven months or so in the role, any new initiatives coming up in the near future, or anything in rugby?
Speaker 2:Nothing fantastically new, but I think this year we are finally in a good position, stable enough, after COVID, to say that we are going to come back with some of the age group programs. So your pathways, which already pre-established in the past, and then, I think so your under 16 age group programs, your under 18 age group these are all coming back this year. In May we have the seventh event, the Singapore seventh, at the stadium, so this year we have a bigger role in that.
Speaker 2:So we are working with World Rugby to build in some of the ancillary tournaments. The national team will be playing in one of the ancillary tournaments as well, and then this year we'll also see the return of our 15 aside competition in July. So the men's team will finally play after four years.
Speaker 1:You spoke about the age groups. Trying to get that back in right. I just wanted to ask you this I don't know, is it only me or are there enough players at the primary school level playing rugby like schools offering rugby as a CCA? Because I think there's not many, right.
Speaker 2:Can we?
Speaker 1:do something Like is there something?
Speaker 2:So I think there has been an issue that has been existing for a long time. So there are currently about 20 primary schools offering rugby out of. There are hundreds of primary schools. There's only 20 primary schools offering rugby, and then in secondary schools there's about 12 or 13.
Speaker 1:Why Is there a reason why? Why so, if?
Speaker 2:you look at it right, it's the same pool of players that you're competing for. So in every school let's say you have a cohort of your school population let's say it's a thousand there's only so many team spots that you can afford to field. You want to have a strong football team.
Speaker 1:If you want to have a strong hockey team, so what you're saying is the overlap, as in some players might be, so that talent pool might be depleted in each school.
Speaker 2:So it's tough because fielding currently the format in our secondary schools is that 15 aside format. So to have one team you need to have about 30 players and then if you want your fastest guy, you want your best athletes, who also maybe needed for your soccer team, but then they could do something that you did, that's, pushing the limits For four CCS.
Speaker 1:I'm just kidding.
Speaker 2:But there are schools that allow for this If I'm not wrong, some of the IB schools because the timeline for them with their exams and all that slightly different. So there are athletes that are dual-heading in their sports.
Speaker 1:But I really would love to see more. I'm serious Like more rugby. Primary schools wouldn't play.
Speaker 2:So an actual thing that is happening right now, similar to what football is doing with the Unleashed, the Role and the Youth League. Something that has been existing for the last few years is the Junior rugby club's league.
Speaker 1:Is this something like the active SG kind of thing?
Speaker 2:It is exactly the same as what the youth football league is doing. So there is a vibrant pool of about 2,000, 3,000 kids playing every Saturday.
Speaker 1:So this is the primary school, or the older ones.
Speaker 2:Junior, so all the way from 6 years old to 17 years old. Great, and they play for their clubs. So a lot of the primary school kids that are actually interested in rugby may not have a CCA in school. This is their option. Nice.
Speaker 1:Nice, nice. Now, that's the thing that I wanted to see especially.
Speaker 3:You know as you go out anywhere in the stadium you see the footballers right.
Speaker 1:I just want to see that rugby bit. I think that would be fun. What are the changes personally you want to see in rugby, in the sport here in Singapore especially?
Speaker 2:I think I mean just writing on that last topic, right, about what you want to see.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right. So the visibility of rugby, right, just the prominence. Currently we I mean not every NSA can say that we have a big event or calendar which we have right. We should I mean from the rugby union's perspective to write on this to gain a bit more visibility. Right, and hopefully the visibility transcends to, like you said, the junior rugby clubs link.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:You said it yourself right Now. You drive past stadiums on Saturdays. You see kids playing football, which is a beautiful sight. The rugby fields are a bit more secluded, a bit more Of course, but there are.
Speaker 1:Where are the rugby fields, man? You see, I don't know. That's another question, I don't know. So where are they? I know is the Yochitang Stadium is one, is it?
Speaker 2:So currently rugby is only played in Yochitang Jurong West Jurong West Stadium.
Speaker 1:Yes, okay, okay.
Speaker 2:And CCAB Right.
Speaker 1:This is official stadium this is where, the Marlin Road, no, no.
Speaker 3:CCAB is in Occhert, the Bukit Timah one, ah right right, okay, okay Of NUS.
Speaker 2:And then a lot of the club games are all at international school fields. Okay, get it.
Speaker 1:Nice, nice, all right, man, I'm really looking forward to all these, you know, and the new initiatives that you're speaking about. Now it's almost time to go, but I always end up with a quick fire round. Okay, you got an answer in within five seconds or so. Easy peasy for you, I'm sure. Okay, first one All blacks, or South Africa All blacks. That's fast. I wanted to ask you, leopoldo a menu, but I already know the answer right, cantona or Ronaldo.
Speaker 2:Which Ronaldo, the menu one, the menu one, the menu one. Menu one, the menu one.
Speaker 1:Cantona. If I would say Ronaldo, brazilian, still Cantona. So favorite pre-match meal.
Speaker 2:Meal no, but I would have a latte pre-match.
Speaker 1:Pre-match Okay, nice, your pet peeve as a coach.
Speaker 2:That's many, I know.
Speaker 1:Lack of resilience. Okay, nice, nice, the biggest achievement professionally.
Speaker 2:Professionally work-wise. What's the problem? Problem Too many, right? No, no, no, no, no. There's a reason why I haven't achieved much in my work.
Speaker 1:Ah, okay, okay, okay, just what, just what Off your head, man.
Speaker 2:Off my head Just getting being a head of department in my school, nice. Biggest disappointment Because the disappointment not studying harder when I was young.
Speaker 1:But it's alright right, you see, you see, you see where you are right now.
Speaker 2:Only because of this quick fire round, I had to answer that.
Speaker 1:Three words to describe yourself. Well, three.
Speaker 2:Three words yeah, life long learning.
Speaker 1:Wow, not bad man, that's quick. What motivates you the most?
Speaker 2:What motivates me the future? One thing to ensure that the future is sustainable. So I apply that principle at home as well. So every time I'm lazy or tired, I ask myself what kind of father am I going to be? What kind of kids, what kind of role model am I going to be to my kids? Right, then I okay.
Speaker 1:Ah, things a certain way Nice, nice, nice. Who would you like to be stuck with in deserted island and why Minus your wife, huh Wife and kids all out?
Speaker 2:Stuck with on that deserted island, elon Musk, and why? Why? He will probably think of a way out of the island.
Speaker 1:Oh right, Not bad man, Not bad, not bad. Last question right your favourite podcast, the Silver Fox.
Speaker 2:Hustle, lovely.
Speaker 1:Now you know, for, for you know listeners out there, people are watching this right, uh and and. For beginners as well, kids taking up the sport. Any advice for them?
Speaker 2:Kids taking up the sport, beginners, anyone interested, anyone curious about the game, go and try it. Don't be too bothered about the technicalities, don't think about the set pieces, don't worry too much about whether it will affect your DSA and all that Right At the end of the day, it's, it's why we love the sport, right, it's the passion part, right. So get a ball, get running around and start running away from your friends or whatever, but that's how you start Nice, Nice, nice.
Speaker 1:So yeah, mr Sine Kumar, thank you very much, man, for being on the podcast and any last thoughts you want to. You know any shout out to anyone.
Speaker 2:No, no, no, I think to Shasi. Thank you, keep doing you, I think.
Speaker 1:You're welcome, man. You're welcome Awesome. This has been the latest episode of the Silver Fox Hustle Podcast with my special guest, the GM of SRU, mr Sine Kumar. Thank you again for being here, for being you know so candid as well, you know, and good luck to you for your future undertaking, especially with the SRU. I think you've been doing a good job so far. Keep on pushing for the sport of rugby and I hope to see you soon again, man, my friend. Well, this has been the latest episode. The Hustle Beats Talent when talent doesn't hustle Cheers.